local soil conditions

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Arnaud
Posts: 74
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:13 am

local soil conditions

Post by Arnaud »

Hello,

We would be very interested to set different initial soil humidity (%) according to different areas in a model. To take into account porous structures with different water capacity retention capabilities. This will help us to simulate the incidence of evaporation on surface temperature, thermal comfort, etc. Do you think it would be possible to implement that ?

I know that the question was already raised but : does it exist any other possibilities to model these phenomena and special structures ?

Thanks a lot for your consideration.

Regards.

Arnaud.

Tim
Posts: 2841
Joined: Mon May 15, 2017 3:46 pm

Re: local soil conditions

Post by Tim »

Hi Arnaud,

Thank you for the suggestion, we will see if that it possible to be implemented in the future.
For now, you probably already checked the option to use irrigated soil profiles as wet surfaces against the other profiles that are not irrigated.
Another option would be to use natural soils for the areas that shall get a higher soil humidity and artificial soils for the other ones. Simulate all soils with low soil humidity at the start and then increase the soil humidity for the natural soils automatically by using precipitation in FullForcing.

Best regards,
Tim

Arnaud
Posts: 74
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:13 am

Re: local soil conditions

Post by Arnaud »

Tim wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 6:35 am Hi Arnaud,

Thank you for the suggestion, we will see if that it possible to be implemented in the future.

Thanks a lot for that !

For now, you probably already checked the option to use irrigated soil profiles as wet surfaces against the other profiles that are not irrigated.

I remember this possibility but did not try it yet. I'll check that. Thanks.

Another option would be to use natural soils for the areas that shall get a higher soil humidity and artificial soils for the other ones. Simulate all soils with low soil humidity at the start and then increase the soil humidity for the natural soils automatically by using precipitation in FullForcing.

It is an option but it needs more computation time as you need to wait for the precipitation and the water to be absorbed and then wait for the water to evaporate. Furthermore we do have artificial materials with porosity. I already saw some posts talking about this subject. We just need to set our artifical material to natural one in the material settings and it will be good, is that right ?

Regards.

Arnaud.

Tim
Posts: 2841
Joined: Mon May 15, 2017 3:46 pm

Re: local soil conditions

Post by Tim »

Hi Arnaud,

Yes, it probably takes some more time... however, you may increase the precipiation value to a very large amount in the first hours and the soil gets probably wet very fast. It is only a suggestion, we never tried that before.

Yes, I the humidity coming from precipitation is only added to the natural soils and not the artificial ones. You could simply change that parameter to enable or disable if the soil should get water.

Best regards,
Tim

Arnaud
Posts: 74
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:13 am

Re: local soil conditions

Post by Arnaud »

Yes, it probably takes some more time... however, you may increase the precipiation value to a very large amount in the first hours and the soil gets probably wet very fast. It is only a suggestion, we never tried that before.


We could try that too of course. I'm afraid it would cause some instabilities in some models.

Anyway thanks for that.

Regards.

Arnaud.

Arnaud
Posts: 74
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:13 am

Re: local soil conditions

Post by Arnaud »

Hi Tim,

Please I need some last confirmation concerning natural and artificial soils. I understood that, by default :

- artificial soils have no values entered for all regarding water properties so that no water can enter this material ;
- heat conductivity is used to solve the heat transfer equation ;

- natural soils have water properties used to consider permeability ;
- Clapp & Hornberger constant is used to solve the heat transfer equation with the help of water content at each time.

If I create a material with water properties and I set its type to artificial, what will happen ? Will these properties be used or will be considered as impermeable ? I need to model permeable pavement.
Maybe the type of material choice is only used for choice between heat conductivity / Clapp & Hornberger constant ?

Thanks in advance for these last explanations.

Regards.

Tim
Posts: 2841
Joined: Mon May 15, 2017 3:46 pm

Re: local soil conditions

Post by Tim »

Hi,

If you create a material with water properties and set its type to artificial, it is considered as impermeable. Why don't you model a pavement instead and set it to natural soil, it would then be permeable and has the parameters of a pavement.

Best regards,
Tim

Arnaud
Posts: 74
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:13 am

Re: local soil conditions

Post by Arnaud »

That is what we did, it is ok. I just wanted to be sure how the "artficial/natural" choice affect the use of certains properties or not.
Am I also right concerning the choice bettween thermal conductivity and clapp & hornberger constant ?

Thanks anyway for your prompt replys.

Tim
Posts: 2841
Joined: Mon May 15, 2017 3:46 pm

Re: local soil conditions

Post by Tim »

Hi,

Yes, that is correct.

Best regards,
Tim

TaraHaeri88
Posts: 63
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:01 am

Re: local soil conditions

Post by TaraHaeri88 »

Dear Tim,
Im really sorry to bother here. Regarding the permeable pavement, I just wanted to make sure if I understood well.

First, in Soils section, we create a natural soil (natural soils) and edit the parameters accordingly.
Second, in Profiles section, we create a pavement (Roads & Pavements), and in Edit Profile, we replace the first few layers for example ''cement concrete'' with that Soil which we created on first stage.
Is that correct?

Thank you very much for your time.
Kind regards
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Frederic
Posts: 38
Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:06 am

Re: local soil conditions

Post by Frederic »

Hello TaraHaeri88,

yes. I think this is the method suggested by Tim.

Best
Frederic

TaraHaeri88
Posts: 63
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:01 am

Re: local soil conditions

Post by TaraHaeri88 »

Hi Fredric. Thank you very much.

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